Classic Reading Suggestions

[nithska]

Okay, I read the guidelines of BCS... and realized that i did not have a good grasp of what classic or traditional fantasy was all about, much less what a literary approach to it might look like.

My fantasy reading tends toward Mieville, Vandermeer, and K.J. Bishop. The most traditional fantasy I've read is GRRM, CS Lewis, Some Donaldson, Greg Keyes, Hope Mirless, Tolkien, Leguin, and Lloyd Alexander.

I went to my local mom-and-pop book story on the town square and bought about ten old Ace and DAW paperbacks to get a feel for this side of the genre spectrum. Witch World by Norton, The Sword of Rhiannon by Bracket, Princess of Mars by Burroughs, Eyes of the Overworld by Vance, Swords Against Wizardry & Swords of Lankhmar by Lieber, Flashing Swords #1 by Lin Carter, the Second Earthsea book by Leguin, and Star King by Vance (yeah, that's not fantasy but I love the Tschai books so I had to get this one too).

What classics of the genre are BCS's Beatles, Elvis, and Stones? If not these, what books would you steer reader/writers toward. Of course the stories in BCS, but beyond that?

Take care,

BB

[Scott H. Andrews]

My fantasy reading tends toward Mieville, Vandermeer, and K.J. Bishop. The most traditional fantasy I've read is GRRM, CS Lewis, Some Donaldson, Greg Keyes, Hope Mirless, Tolkien, Leguin, and Lloyd Alexander.

I went to my local mom-and-pop book story on the town square and bought about ten old Ace and DAW paperbacks to get a feel for this side of the genre spectrum. Witch World by Norton, The Sword of Rhiannon by Bracket, Princess of Mars by Burroughs, Eyes of the Overworld by Vance, Swords Against Wizardry & Swords of Lankhmar by Lieber, Flashing Swords #1 by Lin Carter, the Second Earthsea book by Leguin, and Star King by Vance....

What classics of the genre are BCS's Beatles, Elvis, and Stones?

That's a great question. I think the "Beatles, Elvis, and Stones" analogy is quite appropriate because, just like with music and those three bands, there are different phases of these types of things, originating from different influences and molded by popular trends, and they morph and change.

I'm working on a reply, which I hope to have done tonight. Until then, happy reading! :)

[nithska]

I look forward to your reply. :)

Brandon

[Scott H. Andrews]

From my personal reading experience, which is by no means exhaustive, I would sort classic fantasy into four loose eras.

First, the pulp era of the 1920s and 30s, with authors such as Robert E. Howard. The stories from that era for me have a gritty feel of exploring lost or uncivilized areas, the heroes are often a bit dark, and the prose can be over-the-top. Some of that can seem rough to a modern reader, but there's a spirit of raw adventure that still comes through to me.

Second, the post-WWII era of the 1940s through say 1970. Lots of the stuff in this period was influenced by the pulp era. It wasn't quite as dark or gritty, but most of it still focused on low-born gritty characters. SF was very much the dominant subgenre then, but Fritz Leiber started writing Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories in the 40s, and Jack Vance in the 50s writing his science fantasy.

Third for me is what I call the post-Tolkien era. The huge popularity of Lord of the Rings, published in Britain in the 60s and in America in the early 70s, put fantasy on the map as a separate subgenre. It also ushered in the "high" or "epic" fantasy style of noble-born characters saving the world from apocalyptic evil. Lots of other great fantasy came out in the mid-70s, including LeGuin's first Earthsea books and Patricia McKillip's early books. Unfortunately, every Beatles also has their Monkees, so this era also featured lots of Tolkein clones, inferior (in my opinion) epic fantasy copying the same format. A few authors added new twists, like Donaldson using an anti-hero as the protagonist. I think this era peaked in the early 90s with the huge epic fantasy books and seemingly endless series by authors such as Robert Jordan.

In the mid-90s things started to change into what I would call the modern era, a lot of it seeming a reaction to the glut of epic fantasy. Some started writing epic fantasy more centered on the characters as people, like George R. R. Martin and Robin Hobb. Some started using non-medieval settings, like Scott Lynch, or non-Western settings, like Toby Buckell. Other writers started bringing more literary influences to the table, like Mieville and VanderMeer.

There were also lots of ancillary trends over these same periods that affected the writing. One was the evolution of narrative point-of-view--as movies and TV became popular in the 1960s, fiction narrative developed the close or tight point-of-view that goes deep into only one character's head. Movies and TV could always show the outside more vividly than fiction, but they could never capture a person's inner thoughts or feelings as powerfully. Another trend was the decline of short fiction. Perhaps because of the popularity of genre novels, short fiction markets have shrunk dramatically in the last thirty years. As a result, fantasy short fiction has gotten more literary even than the fantasy genre as a whole.

For BCS, what I'm trying to do is mix the modern approach with the classic adventure fantasy subject matter. The modern approach for me, especially in short fiction, is using literary-style narrative techniques to achieve just as much power in the fiction as literary writers do. And the classic fantasy subject matter would include castles and thieves and swordsmen and strange beasts--basically anything fantastical and awe-inspiring.

So among those intermingling timelines of thematic and stylistic eras, I think the modern stuff, especially short fiction, and the pulp or post-WWII stuff might be the most relevant in terms of what I'm looking for. The modern stuff has the execution and the pulp stuff has the classic fantasy elements.

To sum up,
my Elvis = Robert E. Howard (the big famous early classic)
my Beatles = Tolkein (the huge genre-changing influence)
my Stones = Fritz Leiber (the gritty underpinning of old and new)

[nithska]

That's a great answer. Thank you.

BB

[Saladin]

Let us not forget Michael Moorcock -- perhaps playing the role of David Bowie...

[Scott H. Andrews]

Let us not forget Michael Moorcock -- perhaps playing the role of David Bowie...
Absolutely. He's right at the end of that post-WWII phase, right before Tolkien. He took the pulp swordsman character and, kind of like Donaldson did with the epic fantasy format, made it darker and more interesting by having the protagonist be an anti-hero.

Definitely, nithska, add some early Moorcock Elric stories to your list. If you get Vol. #2 of Lin Carter's Flashing Swords! anthology series, it has an Elric story and it's the best story IMO in that volume.

[nithska]

Absolutely. He's right at the end of that post-WWII phase, right before Tolkien. He took the pulp swordsman character and, kind of like Donaldson did with the epic fantasy format, made it darker and more interesting by having the protagonist be an anti-hero.

Definitely, nithska, add some early Moorcock Elric stories to your list. If you get Vol. #2 of Lin Carter's Flashing Swords! anthology series, it has an Elric story and it's the best story IMO in that volume.

I will keep an eye out for it.... I've read Dancers at the End of Time, which was fun.

The book I've had a heck of a time finding is the Dying Earth book (I know there is an omnibus available but I dislike reading those for reasons not pertinent here). I think I mentioned getting Eyes of the Overworld, but I always worry that starting a series midstream will leave me flailing. I am eager to read the Dying Earth books for two reasons: I loved the unfortunately named Planet of Adventure books, and I really didn't like the DE Vance story in Flashing Swords #1. I may have expected too much from all the raves for that series.

Ok, and I know I am pushing the analogy at this point, but would Vance be the Pink Floyd of the group? lol Sorry, it's been a long day. :)

[Scott H. Andrews]

I am eager to read the Dying Earth books for two reasons: I loved the unfortunately named Planet of Adventure books, and I really didn't like the DE Vance story in Flashing Swords #1.

Ok, and I know I am pushing the analogy at this point, but would Vance be the Pink Floyd of the group? lol
Many of those Flashing Swords! stories, in my opinion, are weak. They were all original to those anthologies, and it seem to me that many of those authors were mailing-it-in or coasting on the characters and styles that had earned them their deserved reputations. The Moorcock one in #2 I thought was the exception.

Vance is well-known in SF circles, probably for the Dying Earth, but he's virtually unknown in fantasy--his great epic fantasy trilogy Lyonesse has been out of print for years. So I would have to compare him to someone more underground than Floyd but well-respected in a different subgenre. How about John McLaughlin of Mahavishnu Orchestra? :)

[nithska]

And I thought I was up on my underground music. :) Thanks for your input on these questions. B

[Kenneth Mark Hoover]

I found this thread both informative and helpful, particularly how Scott broke the fantasy genre into four distinct phases. It made a lot of sense to me. Thanks guys! :)