"Sun Magic, Earth Magic," by David D. Levine

[Scott H. Andrews]

This thread is for discussion of "Sun Magic, Earth Magic (http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/forums/../story.php?s=9)," by David D. Levine, which appeared in BCS Issue #1 on Oct. 9, 2008.

[Bill Ward]

A really great example of how secondary world fantasy doesn't have to be about sword-swinging and ale-swilling, and that, in fact, it can tell meaningful stories in a way no other genre can. A very human story, at it's core.

[Matthew Wuertz]

This was an engaging story, and I enjoyed seeing the limits of a protagonist with such extraordinary power. Mr. Levine does not disappoint.

[Carl T. Abt]

This was well-crafted, integrating symbolism with character actions, but it relied too heavily on symbolism, which is just a device. The most emotionally powerful parts showed point-of-view, such as when Luca asks to be left to his death, and when Shira’s mother was both delighted and dismayed to see her daughter become a Sun Priestess.
Symbols, even when used perfectly, are still just tools: they are secondary to POV and actions. I tire of interpreting one symbol after another even if they are organic to the story. Too many symbols, no matter how well integrated, smack of artifice – they show the author’s hand. One thing that is commonly lost in contemporary fiction is the place of the writer’s tools – POV is central, not symbols or imagery. As a storyteller, I—as a general rule—only resort to my tools when what my characters do and say is insufficient to express them. I don’t invest too much of myself in my tools.
This story was okay. It had the few strong points counterbalancing the mind-numbing march of interpreting one symbol after another.

[Scott H. Andrews]

This story was okay. It had the few strong points counterbalancing the mind-numbing march of interpreting one symbol after another.
I wonder if the things you're interpreting as symbols are things that I see as just details. Like Gaunt's tattoo that you mentioned in your post on "The Sword of Loving Kindess." The actual graphic her tattoo contains is certainly indicative of her character, but when I read genre fiction, I don't stop to analyze what deeper symbolic meaning each detail might have--I absorb the detail, and any symbolic value, and move on.

Shira's sun amulet for me is similar. It does symbolize the sun's role as the source of her powers and the center of her spirtuality, but each time I read a mention of it, I don't stop to ponder symbolism patterns. That doesn't occur to me while I'm wondering how she's going to struggle to achieve her character goal.

I think F/SF fiction by its very nature has more details than mainstream or literary fiction--secondary-world settings have to be fleshed out for the reader, and there's often emphasis on cool visuals. I'm used to absorbing all those details in a visual way first and a literary-analysis way second.

So I found the story highly entertaining--I was glued to the screen wondering if Shira was going to be able to save the boy. She tried twice, using everything she knew how to use, and all her abilities--the skills that were who she was as a person, that were the core of her self-worth--had failed. That internal character conflict, driven by the external event of the boy being trapped, was very engaging for me.

[Carl T. Abt]

I need to get into your habit of seeing details physically first, and symbollically second. I think I've been in college too long, absorbing the literary culture in spite of myself. That said, I know most of the things I noticed as symbols were meant to be - they would not have found their way into the story by accident.

The sun amulet is a different matter because Shira recognizes it as a symbol. It is real to her world as a symbol, not an artifice imposed by the author.

I could see how her struggle to save the boy could be interesting, but I knew it was a forgone conclusion that she would prevail. There is some subconscious part of me that knows how this type of story ends, and I'm afraid I just don't know how to put it into words. After reading so many stories, you get a feel for how certain stories end. Also, there's something about her cocky attitude at the beginning that lets me know how she will grow as a person because it is so obvious that that is what has to change. So there wasn't much suspense for me.

[Mary Robinette Kowal]

Very enjoyable story with lovely and believable world-building.

I'll admit that I'm baffled trying to figure out what the symbols are that Mr. Abt is referring to. I don't suppose you'd enlighten me with specific ones and what you think they refer to, would you? The only thing I can come up with is that you're seeing the Sun God as Christianity and the Earth Goddess as representing any oppressed culture in a post-colonial society. I don't really buy that as being what the story is about though.

I thought that it dealt with a crisis of faith and clash of cultures in pretty realistic manner. I mean, if one has certain proof of the existance of one's god then it makes religion and faith a whole different game. That's interesting territory to explore.

I'll just repeat again, that I enjoyed this very much.

[Scott H. Andrews]

I thought that it dealt with a crisis of faith and clash of cultures in pretty realistic manner. I mean, if one has certain proof of the existance of one's god then it makes religion and faith a whole different game. That's interesting territory to explore.
That's the way it worked for me. I found that crisis of faith and clash of cultures, combined with a very claustrophobic-feeling cave, quite an engaging read.

I'll just repeat again, that I enjoyed this very much.
Thanks very much for your comments!

[Carl T. Abt]

Dear Miss Kowal,
I want to learn how to look at fantasy as you. I want to see the world it paints first, and any symbollic meaning secondary. I just had a hard time with "Sun Magic, Earth Magic". My model for exemplary fantasy adventure is currently Alan Campbell's Scar Night saga. It occasionally lets symbols rise to the surface, but its strength lies in how it reveals point of view through its world-building and the actions of its characters.

As for the symbolism, I was more annoyed on the small scale than the large scale - I see how the story could be interpretted to reflect Christian versus oppressed culture, but such allegory wasn't intrusive. What bothered me was the accumulation of small symbols.

Take this passage for example:
“Set me down here,” she whispered. “Leave me in the light.” She found herself leaning against a cold rock, surrounded by Gvubi and his men, as Uhric gave her wine and honey. The clouds to the west reddened as the Sun set, invisible.

I would have edited to this:
“Set me down here,” she whispered. “Leave me in the light.” She was surrounded by Gvubi and his men, as Uhric gave her wine and honey. Grudgingly, she said, "Thank you."

We already know that Shira finds the local hospitality uncomfortable from how she reacts to it (My additional writing might not have been the most brilliant , but Levine might have found some other character action to express her discomfort with Uhric's hospitality). We already know that her own power has failed in this situation - we don't need the setting Sun to become invisible. Repeating what has already been said merely dillutes the power of the story.

Levine uses the imagery to create symbols that reflect the action. It doesn't add another layer of meaning: it just repeats what the characters have already shown. This artifice is fluff: it shows no part of the character that the character can't show with their own actions.

[Scott H. Andrews]

What bothered me was the accumulation of small symbols.

Take this passage for example:
“Set me down here,” she whispered. “Leave me in the light.” She found herself leaning against a cold rock, surrounded by Gvubi and his men, as Uhric gave her wine and honey. The clouds to the west reddened as the Sun set, invisible.

I would have edited to this:
“Set me down here,” she whispered. “Leave me in the light.” She was surrounded by Gvubi and his men, as Uhric gave her wine and honey. Grudgingly, she said, "Thank you."
To me, those bits are all setting the mood and revealing character through vivid details. The "found herself" makes me feel that she's a bit dazed, after wearing herself out trying to free the boy. The cold rock I love as another tactile detail of the earth and the same sort of material that's all around her in the cave. The sunset for me is not only a vivid image that readers can see, and not only a symbol of her power, but also the literal source of her power. I might not have used the exact word "invisible"--it takes a half hour or so for a setting sun to become completely invisible--but it certainly works in this context.

So again, I think the objects or images you are reading as symbols appear to me as details first, showing world or character or scene, and symbols second. They don't bother me or slow me down, and without them Shira's situation would feel far less vivid to me.

You might try reading faster, at a faster speed. I do that when things on the sentence level are slowing me down, like turgid language. It gives me much less time to think about the sentence level and makes the larger story things come through easier for me.